"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" - Psalms 133:1
Should everybody be allowed to read the Bible? (Spoiler alert: I think the answer is yes, but don’t stop reading yet.)
In the later part of the 14th century, John Wycliffe became the first person to translate the Bible into English. His aim was to get the Bible into the everyday language of the people. His story is complicated and full of twists but suffice it to say, his actions did not engender him to the hierarchy of the Church.
The translating of the Latin Bible into the “vulgar” English language worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His remains were exhumed in 1428 and burned. His ashes were spread over the Swift River.
The lens of history does not reflect well on the way the Catholic Church handled this issue. However, the Catholic Church may have been correct about one thing. They desperately feared a scriptural translation that could be read by king and commoner alike because they believed the commoner was not capable of "rightly dividing" the word of God. Putting the Bible into the hands of people not professionally trained to interpret it would result, they predicted, in rampant divisions within the Church and loss of the unity so often implored by the New Testament.
And that is exactly what happened!
By the end of the following century a German priest named Martin Luther, influenced by the work of Wycliffe, nailed his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, thus setting the stage for the Protestant Reformation and the results that followed. Up through the time of Luther, the Church was mainly comprised of two sects or branches, the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic (the result of the first Church split right after the beginning of the second millennium). Since Luther, the church has splintered so many times it is difficult for scholars to accurately assess how many differing branches exist. But we have gone from two branches at the time of Luther to, according to many estimates, over 40,000 branches today.
Why? Because we started reading the Bible.
What Wycliffe, Luther, and all the reformers started was a needed and necessary work. The desire of the Reformation Movement was to rid the Church of the power to dictate the truths of the Bible and put this power squarely into the hands of the people. And despite the results of countless divisions, none of us really wants to go back to a situation where clergy dispenses truth to us. However, swirling beneath the surface of our everybody-should-study-the-Bible-for-themselves attitude is the same fear that fostered the Catholic Church’s resistance to an English Bible translation. We are scared people will reach different conclusions.
And reach different conclusions we do. No theological position or doctrinal belief has been immune to human interpretive difference. Well intentioned Bible-believing Christians disagree about everything from issues as small as the order of a worship service to much bigger issues such as the nature of God, the incarnation, soteriology, or the theory of atonement.
The fallout of a disagreement over any Biblical issue considered foundational has usually resulted in Church division. One may wonder how it rightly could be otherwise. Whenever we disagree on a Biblical doctrine or teaching, we seem to think the only justifiable solution is to separate. After all, if two people hold opposing views, somebody must be wrong and they are, therefore, guilty of teaching false doctrine. We dare not stay in fellowship with them for fear of appearing supportive of their views.
In the later part of the 14th century, John Wycliffe became the first person to translate the Bible into English. His aim was to get the Bible into the everyday language of the people. His story is complicated and full of twists but suffice it to say, his actions did not engender him to the hierarchy of the Church.
The translating of the Latin Bible into the “vulgar” English language worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy -- a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His remains were exhumed in 1428 and burned. His ashes were spread over the Swift River.The lens of history does not reflect well on the way the Catholic Church handled this issue. However, the Catholic Church may have been correct about one thing. They desperately feared a scriptural translation that could be read by king and commoner alike because they believed the commoner was not capable of "rightly dividing" the word of God. Putting the Bible into the hands of people not professionally trained to interpret it would result, they predicted, in rampant divisions within the Church and loss of the unity so often implored by the New Testament.
And that is exactly what happened!
By the end of the following century a German priest named Martin Luther, influenced by the work of Wycliffe, nailed his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, thus setting the stage for the Protestant Reformation and the results that followed. Up through the time of Luther, the Church was mainly comprised of two sects or branches, the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic (the result of the first Church split right after the beginning of the second millennium). Since Luther, the church has splintered so many times it is difficult for scholars to accurately assess how many differing branches exist. But we have gone from two branches at the time of Luther to, according to many estimates, over 40,000 branches today.
Why? Because we started reading the Bible.
What Wycliffe, Luther, and all the reformers started was a needed and necessary work. The desire of the Reformation Movement was to rid the Church of the power to dictate the truths of the Bible and put this power squarely into the hands of the people. And despite the results of countless divisions, none of us really wants to go back to a situation where clergy dispenses truth to us. However, swirling beneath the surface of our everybody-should-study-the-Bible-for-themselves attitude is the same fear that fostered the Catholic Church’s resistance to an English Bible translation. We are scared people will reach different conclusions.
And reach different conclusions we do. No theological position or doctrinal belief has been immune to human interpretive difference. Well intentioned Bible-believing Christians disagree about everything from issues as small as the order of a worship service to much bigger issues such as the nature of God, the incarnation, soteriology, or the theory of atonement.
The fallout of a disagreement over any Biblical issue considered foundational has usually resulted in Church division. One may wonder how it rightly could be otherwise. Whenever we disagree on a Biblical doctrine or teaching, we seem to think the only justifiable solution is to separate. After all, if two people hold opposing views, somebody must be wrong and they are, therefore, guilty of teaching false doctrine. We dare not stay in fellowship with them for fear of appearing supportive of their views.
Our natural response when differences arise is to assume our position (or our Church’s position) is the correct one, or, at the very least, the most likely to be correct. There are very few individuals capable of viewing the religious opinions of others as having the potential of being as valid as their own opinions. Fewer still are the Churches who can pull off this bit of intellectual honesty. We all believe ourselves to be right. 40,000+ differing divisions all chirping the same song… come to us, we’ve got the Truth.
How can that be? How can we all be so confident yet differ so much? The main problem, as I see it, is that Churches and individuals alike rarely distinguish between Truth and truth. We are all after a perfect and certain understanding of God’s absolute Truth. We go to Church, listen to sermons, attend Sunday school classes and Bible studies, all in the pursuit of the Big T. Yet we vastly overestimate the results of our chase. We fail to realize that just having God’s Truth in a book doesn’t mean we are capable of understanding it perfectly. What we get, despite our sincerest efforts, isn’t Truth. We get our best approximation of “T”ruth -- we get “t”ruth.
To gain meaning from the words of the Bible we are forced to interpret them through the filter of our own mind. Meaning requires interpretation and, unfortunately, our interpretive machinery is all too fallible. There's a fundamental difference between Truth and our interpretations of Truth, and while we search for the former, our imperfections bring us only the latter. If we only recognized this imperfection within ourselves we could more easily understand why our Christian brother down the street suffers from the same condition.
As long as we are going to read the Bible ourselves and not allow Truth to be dictated to us from any earthly authority, we are going to have to deal with differences of opinion. This is unavoidable. It is possible, however, to maintain a unity of brotherhood without unanimity of opinion. But our unity cannot rest on our interpretive abilities and opinions of scripture because it is a fight our finite humanity cannot win. We will never all agree. Our unity must come from “faith in” Truth, not “beliefs about” Truth. We can, I believe, humbly unite through our constant desire to “diligently seek” after Him. It is our search that binds us, not our answers along the way.
How can that be? How can we all be so confident yet differ so much? The main problem, as I see it, is that Churches and individuals alike rarely distinguish between Truth and truth. We are all after a perfect and certain understanding of God’s absolute Truth. We go to Church, listen to sermons, attend Sunday school classes and Bible studies, all in the pursuit of the Big T. Yet we vastly overestimate the results of our chase. We fail to realize that just having God’s Truth in a book doesn’t mean we are capable of understanding it perfectly. What we get, despite our sincerest efforts, isn’t Truth. We get our best approximation of “T”ruth -- we get “t”ruth.
To gain meaning from the words of the Bible we are forced to interpret them through the filter of our own mind. Meaning requires interpretation and, unfortunately, our interpretive machinery is all too fallible. There's a fundamental difference between Truth and our interpretations of Truth, and while we search for the former, our imperfections bring us only the latter. If we only recognized this imperfection within ourselves we could more easily understand why our Christian brother down the street suffers from the same condition.
As long as we are going to read the Bible ourselves and not allow Truth to be dictated to us from any earthly authority, we are going to have to deal with differences of opinion. This is unavoidable. It is possible, however, to maintain a unity of brotherhood without unanimity of opinion. But our unity cannot rest on our interpretive abilities and opinions of scripture because it is a fight our finite humanity cannot win. We will never all agree. Our unity must come from “faith in” Truth, not “beliefs about” Truth. We can, I believe, humbly unite through our constant desire to “diligently seek” after Him. It is our search that binds us, not our answers along the way.
Alexander Campbell said it very well...
"Dear Brother, for such I recognize you, notwithstanding the varieties of opinion which you express on some topics, on which we might NEVER agree. But if we should not, as not unity of opinion, but unity of faith, is the only true bond of Christian union, I will esteem and love you as I do every man, of whatever name, who believes sincerely that Jesus is the Messiah, and hope in his salvation.”- Alexander Campbell, A Restoration of the Ancient Order of Things
Brother,
ReplyDelete"But our unity cannot rest on our interpretive abilities and opinions of scripture because it is a fight our finite humanity cannot win. We will never all agree. Our unity must come from “faith in” Truth, not “beliefs about” Truth. We can, therefore, humbly unite through our constant desire to “diligently seek” Him. It is our search that binds us, not our answers along the way."
That is worth a lot to chew on right there.
If we had a better appreciation for the salvific purpose of Grace rather than Works then our differences of opinion would cause us to come together and reason rather than divide...But, when what we DO is our way to salvation, then obviously crossing EVERY i and dotting EVERY t is essential. It's amazing the number of purposeful violations of men's religious traditions that Jesus wanted everybody to notice...
ReplyDeleteA bunch of human dribble, is this I see, not one real idea from the Bible in fact, just a bunch of thinkers without their brains in tact. Whatsoever the disjoint they see brings them one step closer to distruth they befreak. All is said and done He said, the truth is just a little man in your heads. What of a sense of right should one see when we can just glory in self to be. But one will sense this Juris you fail to doctor, and you will cry aloud with wale and gnash of teeth with no proctor!!!
ReplyDeleteFirst, I have heard of one church dividing over the issue of whether or not Adam and Eve had navels. Yes, there are quite a few different denominations, but I agree on the point of faith in Christ being the unifying bond. The Truth is in no way altered by what we may believe.
ReplyDeleteAs far as finding Truth through a church and listening to sermons, I think this idea is largely misguided. If Christians look to the church to feed them, then they are looking to the wrong place. Support, guidance, counseling, fellowship - these things are a vital and important part of any church community, but it is in the end up to us as individuals to develop a closer relationship with God. No one, not even our pastor/preacher/teacher or what-have-you can have this relationship for us. Jesus did not say you are saved through your Pastor, He said that He is the way, the Truth, and the life, and that no man may come to the Father except through Him. It really bothers me and hurts my soul to see Christians blaming the church for their own laziness in Spiritual growth. You want to be fed? Read God's Word and pray. The Holy Spirit counsels and guides our understanding and our lives, and we cannot expect any man, building, or group to do that for us. I am not saying these things are negative in any way, I am saying the DEPENDENCE on them for Spiritual growth is negative.
People don't divide over Jesus. People divide over systems. I looked at one of the past polls, "Can you go to Heaven if..." The answers are sad.
ReplyDeleteAre any of these founded in scripture?
Example:
You always worship on Monday (or any other day) instead of Sunday?
40/106 said yes (37%); 66/106 said no (73%)
Where in the scripture does it say this? Where does it say we have to gather on Sunday? There are examples, but we ignore the examples of them being together EVERY day.
Another example:
You do not actively seek out opportunities to personally help the poor and needy?
34/106 said yes (32%); 70/106 said no (68%)
So Christ's blood was not enough? I know faith without works is dead, but to answer the poll question "no" is pronouncing hell on anyone who does not "DO" something in return for Christ's free gift.
We have been given these systems we are told to buy into. The are all different, but all the same. We have all added rules for being a follower of Christ. When man adds a rule, man will disagree, and man will divide. Jesus unites, if it is Jesus alone.
Well written Scott and thoughtful. Marcus Borg writes that Christianity is not assenting to a series of Facts but a recognition of the good that already exists. Jesus Christ is our man. He is the Great example. He is Our representation of God's unconditional love. What else is there to quibble about but details which derail us from joining Jesus to alleviate suffering and rescue those who are hurting?
ReplyDeleteDerrick,
ReplyDeleteI am a pretty big fan of Borg myself. And thanks for the compliment about the article.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI thought you might enjoy some of the material on this site:
http://www.freedomsring.org/
I just stumbled onto it, and thought of you because of our similar Church of Christ background. I've still got a lot of exploring to do, but thought you might be interested to explore even before I can give it "my" seal of approval, what ever that would be worth.
In my walks of life I've learned that there is what people are willing to hear, then there is what people are willing to believe and then there is the TRUTH. With truth comes responsibility, and men avoid responsibility like the plague, especially when in the inner sanctum of their souls they know that they will be held responsible.
ReplyDeleteRemember, many will go the broad way to destruction and few (like the 8 that were saved by water at the flood vs. the est. 9 billion [by many historians, archeologist & mathematicians] that inhabited the earth and perished) will find the strait and narrow to everlasting life.
All the goats that follow destruction (those that avoid TRUTH like the plague, like your little party here) are those that will experience the wailing and gnashing of teeth. God will laugh at your torment, you will call for Him and He will withdraw (Prov 1:24-29)
How bout them apples! Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor.
However I am not laughing, because I am a human being too, and I am humble enough to know the prideful, conceited and world loving place that I came from and could return to very quickly if I am not careful, and also humble enough to capitalize on the true worth of God's word, for there is no profit in the way you use it!
I am trying to make it a habit of not responding to anonymous posts. Anonymous people, in my experience, haven't been interested in a conversation... just taking shots at me. However, I am always up for a conversation with someone who is willing to risk their identity.
ReplyDeletePart 1
ReplyDeleteMr. Gadfly and the others who have given up hope on knowing Christ,
I notice a lot of discussion which I guess is the point of this "Gadfly" imprudence. This is proving the point that public professions found in articles such as yours, do not seek unity on truth, but diverts the truth into obscurity and removes any hope from the hearts of those seeking the truth through such venues as blogs. We would agree that their search should be in the Word of God as delivered by the Spirit of Truth. Yet if one finds your article and "agrees" with it, any further study of the Bible is meaningless in leading them to Christ. Your article clearly presents that any conclusion of truth can never be reliable whether you have come to that truth or not. This is proven by the comments made thus far by others. I am risking that you will call me uninterested in a conversation, possibly arrogant, in my response, or that my post is just too lengthy to hold your interest. I do not feel it necessary to identify myself to attract your interest or discussion. I write this hoping to turn one soul toward the truth and for no other reason.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteTruth is divisive in one sense but not in the one being offered by this blogger. Jesus said that being disciplined by his teaching and example will cause division (Luke 14:26). But this article states "Our unity must come from “faith in” Truth, not “beliefs about” Truth." Such statement is beyond boundaries of logic and reasoning. It is a throw-back to “unity in diversity” or “love trumps all”. In Jesus' words to his disciples (John chps 14-17) it is emphasized that unity is based on truth not feelings toward it. The words that the Spirit of truth gave them were just that – All Truth. If truth was not as equally important as their understanding and acceptance of it, then Spirits work is worthless. The blogger makes a poor attempt at logic.
Simple logic will clear up the matter. There are three absolute laws that govern propositions and they are: 1) The law of identity - A proposition that is true, it is true; 2) The law of exclusion – A proposition is either true or false; and 3) The law of contradiction – A proposition cannot be both true and false. Without them, there would be no truth, reason, or understanding. I will show that the article violates rules 2 and 3 and cannot be a reliable source or good for any intelligent discussion on the matter of truth.
Warm-up: An example has been given several years ago of the proposition that “The Bible teaches there is one God.” Of this proposition, let it be supposed that Man A says, “The proposition is true.” Further, suppose Man B says, “The proposition is not true.” Scott the blogger says “The proposition is neither true nor false; there is some good to be said for the view of Man A and the view of Man B.” Further, he says, “When there are opposing viewpoints, who can tell which is right? After all, each one thinks he is right. I say let us be guided by love and agree to disagree. Love is the important thing; it does not matter whether or not we agree on the truthfulness or falsity of this proposition.” Is there unity between the one that affirms the one that denies and Scott, the middle man? It is absurd to believe that the convictions of Man A will allow him to live harmoniously with Man B. It is equally absurd to think that Blogger Scott can find peace with both A and B and still find a conviction of his own when he has none. The best he can do is cause further disharmony by an attempt to lessen the conviction of Man A and Man B. This is his work. To make himself more comfortable in his violation of Law 2, he makes his feeble attempt yet does more to polarize than produce harmony. God hates dissention, yet some are bent on creating it. It is increasing the opportunities of Satan to have his way with souls that Christ so desperately calls to unit with Him in truth. Whether it is Man B or Man S, both are not in unity with the proposition and thus wrong according to a logical exercise. Unity is had in submission to truth as revealed by the Spirit of truth recorded by Christ’s scribes (Matthew 23:34).
Part 3
ReplyDeleteExercise the gray matter: Application of the rules of reason to the proposition “Christ is Truth (John 14:6)”. Either he is all truth or no truth. He must either be one or the other. He cannot be both. If he is not truth then the Bible cannot be relied upon and valueless as a guide to heaven. Every word could not be measured for accuracy and considered false since He speaks of spiritual matters than man would not know of except by revelation from God. Since Christ is Truth for all time, truth would then be protected for all time and would be accessible to all who seek it. If Christ is Truth for all man then those who have a mind to seek it can understand it. If God would want all to come to him then his providential care will provide for seeking heart to have opportunity.
If the position is true (which it is) then what he has said is understood as being all truth on all levels of thought. It will be true in its most simplest for as well as its most complex themes and will never down play or contradict other levels of thought and application. This would mean that Jesus’ words during the age of the full revelation of God’s will for mankind - “He that believes and has been immersed” shall be saved would be true in all cases from that point forward or until he contradicts himself by further ‘revelation’ (at which point he ceases to be truth based upon law 1).
Christ cannot be both Truth and Error to different people. That violates law 2 – The excluded middle. Yet this is what is offered. What Christ commands is relative to the hearer. Can two people hear the command, “Come unto me”, Man A goes to him while Man B continues away and both claim they are following the command? Can two people hear the command of the Spirit “Repent and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin” Man A submits to the process of salvation offered by God while Man B does not and both claim the blessings? Can Man B accept “Come unto me” and reject “repent and be immersed..” and consider himself blessed in Christ? Logic requires that Christ be true on all points and that all truth is the same for all men today and not just “faith in” truth.
Dear Spock,
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, I agree with some of what you write. We agree on some of these points only because you have misunderstood much of my article. But it is quite common for someone to read an article that talks about the difficulty of agreement about Truth and conclude the author is a relativist or believes that further study of the Bible is, as you accuse, "meaningless."
Maybe you are not accusing me of being a relativist. But your responses do seem to suggest it. For the record, I am not a relativist.
One of my biggest complaints with your post is your crediting me with comments I never made. For instance, you quote me as saying:
*** Scott the blogger says “The proposition is neither true nor false; there is some good to be said for the view of Man A and the view of Man B.” Further, he says, “When there are opposing viewpoints, who can tell which is right? After all, each one thinks he is right. I say let us be guided by love and agree to disagree. Love is the important thing; it does not matter whether or not we agree on the truthfulness or falsity of this proposition.”***
Spock, why would you put those statements in quotes? I never said any of that. You assume that is what I would say, I suppose. But here is where we get to the heart of the matter... you can't seem to understand my article correctly, and it is a pretty simple premise. Why would I want to listen to your views on the BIble, given that it is a much larger and intellectually dense work than my paltry article?
As for the rest of your posts, I feel they are rife with logical inconsistencies but I don't want to post about all of them. Instead, if you wish to engage in a conversation, I would prefer to narrow it down a bit so anyone reading can follow it better. That is, after all, what you are hoping for, right?
So I will ask you a question that I believe, based on your responses, can help us move toward a better understanding of one another. Fair?
How much of the Truth do you understand without error?
Diversionary tactics from the point of your blog to ask a question that, again, violates laws that govern understanding is seen as a desperate cling to comfort in the land of the middle. Not being known doesn't stop the truth from being true, which is the answer to the poorly worded question attempting a "prisoners dilemma" quality.
ReplyDeleteYour question broken down shows this to be the case. First: "How much of the truth" attempts several false inferences. Second: "truth do you understand" attempts a false dependency. Thirdly: "without error" requires that truth has a quality of falsity and this makes the question comical.
The question diverts the discussion from truth to whether or not the respondent has enough sense of mind to know truth when he finds it while dismissing the well laid out response I have made that refutes the illogical pablum that misunderstanding of truth is an acceptable quality found in Christ's followers.
I have shown Christ must either true or he is not true. If Christ is true then his words must be true: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
So, Mr. Gadfly, the discussion is not to be shrouded in your diversionary question. Let's me ask you a question that is based upon the truth that Christ is God and that His words are truth - Question: How much error do you understand with truth? Answer: Without Truth you understand nothing! Knowledge of truth is to have the ability to say of what is, that it is, or of what is not, that it is not. If you cannot respond in such terms then you have no understanding of Christ. You say "Ah! I define my spiritual walk by what what I don't understand and therefore what I don't understand makes up what I understand!" It is impossible for one thing to be known without coming to the knowledge of truth. Would not a rose by any other name still smell as sweet? The truth defines its quality of what the thing is and the name quantifies it. So let the thing be a rock and the quality by hard. Rocks that are not hard are no longer rocks. Let the thing be a line and let the line be straight. A line that is not straight is not a line at all. Let there be an action of one following the words of Christ and let the action be virtuous or not virtuous. An act that ceases to be virtuous, it is no longer an act done by one following the words of Christ. Do not mistake this understanding with the loss of salvation for it is the failure to repent and further continuance of such non-virtuous action that brings such consequence (1 John 3:4) Thus spiritual things are known to be true which is derived from Christ the source of truth. If one spiritual thing from Christ is true then all from him is true and knowable. Hence, Christ words, "If any man wills to know...he will know." With truth understanding is had, both what is truth and what is not truth. If you cannot understand spiritual truth without error then you have no truth at all and cannot discern your way and the Bible is of no value to you. That is your dilemma.
Spocky,
ReplyDeleteWhat??? I must be an idiot because I don't understand a word of your ramblings. I did pick up on this...
You refuse to answer my question, and instead, decide to ask me a question. Then you answer for me. Doesn't seem like you are interested in a discussion. But then again, why would you be, since you appear to claim all knowledge and truth. If you don't want to have a discussion I could choose to erase your posts. I am pretty tolerant of other people's opinions, even yours, but I am not tolerant of a one-sided polemic.
But I will give you another shot. Answer my question and feel free to ask me any question you wish? But keep it to one question because your long ramblings are hard to follow for us lesser mortals.
Please don't be bashful or down play your intelligence, Mr. Gadfly. I think you are worthy of great credit in understanding laws that govern logical thinking. To use words such as 'one-sided polemic' is not in every day use. If fact, I cannot find the definition of that phrase anywhere. I hope you will enlighten me on that one.
ReplyDeleteI will take it for granted that you know perfectly well that the question you press is as loaded as Alabama Rifle on November 20th. Thus it is a rhetorical statement and not a question at all. Your 'question' is an unfair fallacy that, in order to answer, requires the response to be a false compromise. Thus such a question effectively ends any honest discussion. I have supplied admittedly wordy responses that answers the ultimate issue that you have raised. I will risk the ridicule of you further and provide the clearest response to your statement. But first I wish to clarify your 'question' so I can be as clear as possible.
1. Your inquiry is personal toward me. I wish to change the personal pronoun to third person. Will you abide by my request?
2. When speaking of 'without error' do you mean to ask 'How much of the truth without error could a person understand'? Or do you mean 'How much of the truth could a person understand WHO is in error'? Or do you mean How much of the truth can a person who mentally deficient and cannot formulate belief? Or is their another meaning that I am missing?
3. Can you clarify 'much of the truth'? Are you referring to Christ's truth for following Him as recorded in New Testament scripture?
If you will provide clarification I will do my best to provide an answer.
Okay Spocky, I will oblige as you wish...
ReplyDeleteHow much of the Truth without error does a person have to understand to be a Christian?
But suppose we change the scenario: “How much truth without error does a person have to understand to be a general medical doctor.” By careful consideration of the process of becoming a medical doctor and then engaging in that process, he can obtain his desire. The day after the passing of the boards he is called a doctor even if he has not operated on one patient. He is a doctor because he has trusted in, followed through, and continues to grow in the things knowable.
ReplyDeleteChristianity is different in one aspect to this scenario: The educational truths that were once taught in medical school may change. The truths that Christ that one trusts in being a Christian are never changing and never evolving for they are constant. Therefore reliable from the first day the truth was trusted.
Another difference: One may miss a question or two and still be endorsed as a doctor. But Christ is very specific on what one must do to be given His name.
ReplyDeleteConsider the name Christian: It is God that promised among the gentiles He would give his family a new name. It was not until several years after the church began in a church made up of gentiles in Antioch did they receive that new name – Christian just as God had promised. Christ has given (notice I say given and not earned by man) his name only to those who accept him, follow his truth, submit to his truth, has put him on in baptism, who continues to strive in pleasing him. This name is not given to those who never began with belief, or who does not trust Christ enough that he would tell them the truth which would make them free!! Christ tells the truth absolute! If we but trust Him that he would never leave us or forsake us at any point, God knows that it would never be at the point of knowing what we must do to wear his name! That is why example after example is given in the New Testament defining the life of a Christian.
The world is not divided into those who seek for the truth and those who do not. But the world can be divided into those who love the truth and those who do not; or those who will to do God’s will (John7:17) and those who do not; or those who have been made free through the knowledge of the truth and those who have not. (John 8: 32) Those who think that we must always search for, but never find, truth are characterized in the Bible as those who are “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (II Tim. 3:7) Never coming to the knowledge of the truth means they were lost. But even in the denial that we cannot achieve even the elementary truth of Jesus and God’s will for mankind as delivered by the Holy Spirit,involves the affirmation that they know enough to know the truth that truth cannot be known.
ReplyDeleteGod’s truth is revealed, knowable, and obtainable. With each step a person takes, trusting in Christ and applying the things he learns, deeper understanding is gained but the truth remains constant as he obtains the knowledge of the truth.
He that begins and continues trusting in Christ and has been baptized shall be saved; he that fails to believe or stops believing in the truth of Christ shall be condemned. Be faithful to Christ, even if it means death, and he will give you the crown of life.
3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking IN the truth.
ReplyDelete3 John 1:3 It gave me great joy when some believers came and testified about your faithfulness to the truth, telling how you continue to walk in IT.
2 John 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.
2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us IN truth and love.
2 John 1:1-2 The elder, To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also ALL WHO KNOW THE TRUTH—because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
1 John 3:18-20 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and IN truth. This is HOW WE KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
Other passages used to form my answer:
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Ephesians 4:20-21 That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Galatians 2:5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
Spock (and I am suspicious this is Jack... but maybe not),
ReplyDeleteI still believe you are disagreeing over a point I never made.
I agree that a person can come "to the knowledge of the truth." I believe in absolutes and I believe I/you/we can come to "know" those truths. But to say that I "know" or "understand" does not necessarily mean I "know" or "understand" perfectly or without the possibility of error.
Since you still haven't directly answered my question I will press it again. And I feel it necessary to make it personal in the hope that you will answer personally and not generally...
- How much of the Truth do YOU understand perfectly and without the possibility of error?
Or, if you prefer the following version, feel free to answer it instead...
- Is it POSSIBLE for YOU to be wrong about any doctrinal issue you consider essential to salvation?
Quote: "Putting the Bible into the hands of people not professionally trained to interpret it would result, they predicted, in rampant divisions within the Church and loss of the unity so often implored by the New Testament.
ReplyDeleteAnd that is exactly what happened!"
Referring to the Catholic church, you connect that idolatrous form of religion with the Church of the new testament that implores unity. However, the Catholic church is not the Church spoken of in the New Testament and nor is it the Church who's unity is based upon the true teachings of the New Testament. I do not say this as if I am delivering some great new message to you. Ex Cathedra is given as truth and Christ's truth is flagrantly disregarded. This must be said because you present a false premise based on it.
I believe that you would recognize that it is a precarious perch you have rested on to crow. Freeing people from idolatry did not produce error. The were in error to begin with. Many just moved from one error to another with no consideration of truth. Others joined themselves with the true body of Christ which was in existence then as it is today. You over state your case and do not give credit that the church of Christ was in existence and active during that entire period.
From your perch, you then constructed your nest:
ReplyDeleteThat following Bible truths clearly taught brings about the loss of unity implored by the Church of the New Testament since not all men can know truth.
Law 1: If this is true then it must be true.
Implication: Reasonable men should stop their efforts following Bible truth to bring about unity.
Law 2: It must be either true or false. No middle ground.
Implication: If it is not true then it must be false and the antithesis is true: That following Bible truths brings about the unity implored by the Church of the New Testament since all men can know truth.
Implication: Unity is had on the truth which is knowable to all men.
Law 3: A thing cannot be both true and false.
(This is what you call for.)
Implication: Man cannot be certain that he is following the truths of the Bible and therefore should strive to tolerate all error so as to be truthful to the possibly true command for unity.
The straw in now falling out of your nest.
I take it that you have given into the truth that a person can understand truth as Christ has said (John 7:17) and thus obtain true unity and not just 'faith in' the truth as you have claimed in your article. Why did Christ give TEACHERS having a divine appointment? Let the Bible speak: “to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up UNTIL WE ALL REACH UNITY in THE faith AND in THE knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (Ephesians 4:12-16) If man cannot obtain unity in the faith and in the knowledge at this time then we must still have apostles walking around today. We see the word until and we can understand that the church of Christ has obtained the all unity which is based in the faith/true doctrine and in the knowledge of (knowable) Christ. Then to know Christ is to know his true doctrine (without error).
ReplyDeleteFor your new question which is much more agreeable but does not represent your position in the article so it is ad homonem. “How much of the Truth do YOU understand perfectly and without the possibility of error?”
ReplyDeleteTo understand truth is to know it as perfect truth. Truth = truth without error. Again the phrase ‘without the possibility of error’ is redundant since it attempts to modify truth. How about the question “Can a person possibly misunderstand about a Bible truth?” The answer would be yes. “Can a person possibly misunderstand what a man must do to be saved?” The answer again is yes if he fails to consider the Psalmist’s words concerning the truth: “The SUM of thy word is truth.” If a person claims salvation by faith alone he fails miserably in the sum of truth. Such a person claims to understand faith but in reality they do not because they reject the sum of God’s word on the subject. Does that mean that all men must not be able to understand and have no obligation to correct and teach the truth? Resoundingly no! Truth is not defined for all by one person who can’t make up his mind if he has the truth or not. Christ not only gave the constant truth, He taught man the laws that would govern man’s ability to understand truth. The Bible provides a history of God’s ascending scale of learning for man to understand the truth that would be delivered once for all by his Son both in word and deed. Having been schooled by the divine and receiving divine truth from the mouth of God, man has no excuse not to know the truth as God wills for man. Can a person possibly misunderstand the truth and become a Christian? No. Isaiah 35:8 clearly states that the way of Christ is not found by a blind grope but a specific intent and understanding. Again, Christ came to save, Christ says man is sanctified by truth and the word is truth, and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. If Christ is true then the only way for man to be saved is to understand the truth by which he is saved.
John 8:44 Christ condemned certain men and explained the reason for their condemnation: “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” By failing to hold to truth, they were children of Satan. The laws of logic apply here as well. Could these people be condemned by Jesus if they had error with some accidental truth mixed in? Of course!
ReplyDeleteJohn stated that “no lie comes from the truth.” To fail to do what Christ said to do and then claim you are saved is a lie and therefore you would not be of the truth and still in sin. Can a person partake in an accidental lie or a mistaken truth in becoming a Christian and be saved? No. For that person is still responsible for following a lie when the merciful God has given all that man needs to escape such lie.
If we love the souls of men, would it not be best for to promote the unity based on truth rather than perpetuating the lie of Satan?
What point of truth concerned with becoming a Christian can be disregarded by a person and God gives his name to him?